On an unrelated note, I've just seen a funny video on homosexuality that is a must watch.
Also, here is a comment I wrote to a Christian commenter on this blog which I feel is worth sharing. It talks about why atheists need to argue against religion:
I think you can understand a lot of practical considerations that atheists have for arguing their case. Imagine if you lived in a country where most people believed in Hinduism. Imagine that lots of people chose the way the voted and they way they behaved towards other people based on what was written in Hindu scriptures. Imagine that you considered some of those behaviors to be manifestly immoral. Would it not be worth your time to show that Hinduism was false (if you had good arguments to back it up)?
That's the situation we atheists feel like we're in. People believe and are teaching their kids about a horrible place called hell to instill a deep-seated fear in them. These kids will then believe that some of their best friends and people that they care about might be going there if those people do not repent before they die.
People aren't treating gays equally, something which is reinforced (if not caused) by Christian belief.
And beliefs that the end of the world is near and Jesus will soon come back may cause people not to take care of planet earth so that it will be habitable in 100 years. In fact, apocalyptic beliefs could even cause people to initiate wars, believing that the beginning of such a war will be the beginning of the apocalypse, and not something to be feared, as it is.
Now, I know you don't believe that Christianity is false, but I think you could agree that IF Christianity is in fact false, then the above are ample reason for atheists to speak out and try to change some minds.
And I don't believe it is an issue of faith. I believe that my worldview is genuinely better supported by far than any other. Just go back to my blog and read about the book I've just published. That book has plenty of info about why I believe that.
Sincerely,
Ryan
That's the situation we atheists feel like we're in. People believe and are teaching their kids about a horrible place called hell to instill a deep-seated fear in them. These kids will then believe that some of their best friends and people that they care about might be going there if those people do not repent before they die.
People aren't treating gays equally, something which is reinforced (if not caused) by Christian belief.
And beliefs that the end of the world is near and Jesus will soon come back may cause people not to take care of planet earth so that it will be habitable in 100 years. In fact, apocalyptic beliefs could even cause people to initiate wars, believing that the beginning of such a war will be the beginning of the apocalypse, and not something to be feared, as it is.
Now, I know you don't believe that Christianity is false, but I think you could agree that IF Christianity is in fact false, then the above are ample reason for atheists to speak out and try to change some minds.
And I don't believe it is an issue of faith. I believe that my worldview is genuinely better supported by far than any other. Just go back to my blog and read about the book I've just published. That book has plenty of info about why I believe that.
Sincerely,
Ryan
9 comments:
As you disagree w.Christian belief, it would probably be a good idea to actually know what you are talking about. "Gay bashing"-to put it simply, as well as any other "bashing" is fundamentally unChristian. Just because a lot of people who Claim to follow Christ do it, doesn't mean it's truly a teaching of Christ. If you can show me in the Bible where Christ teaches hate, towards anyone, I'll gladly retract this statement and even apologize to you. As for any speak of the world coming to an end, this again is completely incorrect as far as what the Bible teaches. What IS taught is that, yes, there will be a devastating war, but after it concludes, the world will continue for at least another 1,000 years. Again I will apologize for conveying false knowledge to you, if you can show me that this isn't true.
It is very important to understand what one is disagreeing with when attacking it. I agree with your sentiment, but from a Christian pov, as what is being passed off as Biblical and of Christ, simply isn't. Of course it is prophetic that there will be Many false teachings in the world, and throughout time this has proven to be true; that being said, I always hope for those who can really speak the truth.
As for claimimg yr pov is "genuinely better supported by far than any other", I don't know if I get what you are saying, but taking it at face value the statement is ridiculous. Read it to yourself out loud, and hopefully you can realize how ... silly it sounds. I don't mean to belittle you or your beliefs, so I apologize if you take offense at me saying that.
One must stand up for their convictions, so it is very important to check up on what one believes. Standing against something that is ignorant in the first place(as though it were true), just shows one's own, even deeper, ignorance. Actually read the Bible and what it truly says if you have the notion to reject it's philosophy. I don't say this to dis you, but to in fact to hopefully help you in your quest to find, and be strong within your own beliefs\onvictions.
Peace out, and feel blessed, for today is another awesome day to be alive.
Hi Frederick,
"'Gay bashing'-to put it simply, as well as any other 'bashing' is fundamentally unChristian."
I didn't use the word "gay-bashing" specifically. I talked about gays not being treated equally. And Christians do engage in that, with the banning of gay marriage and condemning homosexuals to hell. Even if they do not walk up to gay people and say, "You're going to burn!" the simple fact is that they do teach that homosexuals are sinners, and so an unrepentant homosexual is doomed to hell, according to their own beliefs. Those teachings are harmful. Think about someone raised in that faith who can't be who they want to be, who they are, because they are afraid of eternal torture.
Now, it may be a subject of debate as to whether homosexuality is condemned in the scripture, but from reading Romans 1:26-27, I think it is fairly clear that it does teach that. And whether it does or it doesn't, the fact that the anti-gay movement (I use the term broadly, it could refer to even the nice old lady who refuses to vote for gay marriage) can and does use the scriptures to reinforce their own views and convert others to their cause is reason enough to condemn the scriptures if we know on other grounds that they are false anyway.
And yes, I have read the bible, don't arrogantly think that I haven't just because I didn't make any response to your particular interpretation of it.
Thank you for responding, and I do apologize if you felt I was being arrogant towards you there. I can see how you might feel that way, and it wasn't my intention.
Let me clarify: When I say one should read the Bible if they want to attack the Bible, I should have made it clear that what I meant was, One should Study the Bible, and particularly the passage/s which they feel they object to. Reading the Bible is not picking and choosing verses, especially those which another(person, website, whatever) has told you to look up, and then turning around to use what you've read to attack the Bible with.
Take for example Rom 1:26-27: If read in context, one can plainly see that these, as many other verses within Romans, and throughout the Bible, are teachings for One to consider if that One would like to be a Christian. Because how to be a Christian isn't for anybody other than Oneself to decide; this is between themselves and God, through Christ. It is difficult enough to navigate this path which I've chosen, to even think I have a right to decide for another the choices they would make. To reiterate from my first post-I do agree with your sentiment, but I am standing from a Christian pov, because what is being passed off as Biblical and of Christ, simply is not. This is an extreme injustice toward what Christianity really is. Again, like I have said-just because somebody says something is Christian, that doesn't make it so. There's a HUGE amount of people out there, running their mouths, telling others how to be a Christian, when, if they would ever study their Bibles(if they even have one), they would see their own actions stand squarely against the Word of God. The majority of people claiming to be Christians out there simply aren't. Being a Christian is a daily struggle-one that requires much consideration and studying in order to make work.
I used the term "gay bashing" to simplify the explaining. Because let's face it-a lot of so-called Christians LOVE to discriminate against others, telling others that they're wrong, and in fact screaming in faces "You're going to BURN". It is painful for many to see this loud and vocal majority stand as representatives for the Christian faith. They're like BonJovi-they give love a bad name. (ay,yi-yi, please forgive me for that).
So back to Rom 1:26-27; when One continues to read through, and begins chapter 2, it is obvious that Man isn't allowed to Judge others. Furthermore, God will punish all those who do, for it is God's privilege to make judgement, and God's alone.
God gives everyone the strength needed to become the best they can be in life, for that is what God want us to be. So when I read "Think about someone raised in that faith who can't be who they want to be, etc, etc.", I have to reply that the individual needs to stop feeling sorry for themselves, then pull themselves out of the past, and out of their head, and step into life right now. No one can decide for another that they will suffer eternal torture. The idea is quite terrible, and, according to scripture, to make that judgement is to condemn oneself to eternal torture.
Anyway, these are all my opinions, and of course you can take'em or leave'em, as they say. I would like to thank you for the space and graciousness in answering my comment. The truth is found in many many points of view, and I appreciate hearing your pov; I hope you might be able to appreciate mine.
One last thing-I would like to know where those passages in the Bible are, the ones which I asked you to point out to me in my original comment. I would be fascinated to read them.
Thanks again, I do hope I have made my pov clear. If you should respond, that would be great, although I am not interested in arguing. I've only reiterated my previous comments, and would hope I need not explain anymore.
So, be good to yourself, and God Bless.
I am sorry, I forgot One thing: In response to the idea within your argument that "the anti-gay movement use the scriptures to reinforce their own views...is reason enough to condemn the scriptures if we know on other grounds that they are false anyway."
THIS Is completely arrogant, as it implies that somebody Knows what is going to happen after death. Nobody knows what is true or false as far as that is concerned. Beyond that, just because the anti-gay movement uses scripture to shame others is no where near good enough reason to condemn the Bible. I must say that if someone allows another to shame them, that person needs to grow a backbone and feel confident with their own pov. No one can make another person feel Shame; shame, like any other feeling, is what One CHOOSES to feel and accept, and if they really choose to feel that way, maybe they need to look at their own actions instead of condemning scripture in order to dance around the issue.
"If read in context, one can plainly see that these, as many other verses within Romans, and throughout the Bible, are teachings for One to consider if that One would like to be a Christian."
I don't see anything in the context which says that these are just things to consider if you want to become a Christian (you mentioned one thing later on in your post, and I'll address that later on). It very plainly refers to homosexual relations as "unnatural" and "shameful" and describes homosexuals as "inflamed with lust."
"when One continues to read through, and begins chapter 2, it is obvious that Man isn't allowed to Judge others."
I disagree. The context of Romans doesn't condemn judgement as such, but hypocritical judgement. Quoting from the NIV, here's what Romans 2:1 says: "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, ***because you who pass judgment do the same things."*** (emphasis mine).
This point is reiterated in verse 3:
"So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them ***and yet do the same things,*** do you think you will escape God’s judgment?" (emphasis mine).
Hence, it is not simply judging someone that is condemned, but judging someone when you are doing what they are doing.
"One last thing-I would like to know where those passages in the Bible are, the ones which I asked you to point out to me in my original comment."
I re-read your original comment, and the only scriptures that I see that you've inquired about are ones where Christ teaches hate. I don't think Jesus ever taught hate, but I never said or implied he did in the first place, did I?
"THIS Is completely arrogant, as it implies that somebody Knows what is going to happen after death."
It may be bold, but it is not unjustified. Science has thoroughly demonstrated that human beings are complex arrangements of matter and energy and nothing more (no immaterial soul or anything like that) which means that if your brain stops functioning then your experience stops. How science demonstrates that is a very long discussion, but I would simply ask you to google "evidence for mind-brain dependence." I also have a brief discussion about this on page 97 in my book "Atheism and Naturalism" which you can find on lulu.com and amazon.com
"I must say that if someone allows another to shame them, that person needs to grow a backbone and feel confident with their own pov."
I agree that it is up to each person as to how they react to the speech and actions of others. But I think that your statement betrays a very oversimplified view of the way things are. Think about the gay teenagers and young adults you see in the news who have committed suicide. Many of them were totally ostracized by their communities and severly bullied a manner that was both physical and verbal. I know a girl who is bisexual who was told by her mother: "You are not my daughter." In situations like these, you can't just tell that person to get over it and grow a backbone. How could someone not be deeply affected by this sort of thing?
I understand that the New Testament does not condone harassment or bullying. But at the very least it contains things that stop people who might otherwise befriend and support a gay person, as it clearly condmens homosexuality (as I've discussed) and tells Christians not to be "yolked together" with unbelievers and those who are "unrighteous" (which according to the bible, would include homosexuals) see 2 Corinthians 6:14.
Very astute my friend, very astute. Well, I guess this is really a matter of interpenetration and opinion, because we could go back and forth all day pointing out different scriptures and data to back our pov, but the bottom line is that we won't change each others minds, and we shouldn't have to. "We shall have to agree to disagree" as is said.
I suppose I ought to reaffirm my belief though:
Anybody can decide for themselves who they ought to be, for it is upon their own path to God which they walk. When studied overall, as well as when reading specific verses within context, One will find what they ought to do upon that path.
I contend that life continues beyond our physical death, and I believe that the majority of the world(overwhelmingly) would agree. That being said, my personal belief in this is backed with actual life experience. It would take an act of God to change my mind on this issue.
It is necessary to assert that I feel to declare conclusively that there's NO life beyond physical death is just human arrogance. Furthermore, the idea that science is able to prove your claim is absolutely absurd. As humans, we have Never been able to eclipse the half of all knowledge in life, so to say something so bold just goes to show your arrogance.
When a young person commits suicide, it is a tragedy on a scale larger than their "belief system". To blame a passage in the Bible for that decision is just to name an excuse, and cannot reasonably be considered the only reason it happened. That put aside-to say those guardians within the situation were Christian is obviously wrong.
There is a great dispute as to whether 2Cor 6:14 was actually written by Paul or not. It is in sharp contrast to his appeal for open hearts that is found from 6:1-13; regardless-Christ taught to have fellowship with all, for all deserve to be with God in His Kingdom. Furthermore, I am not an expert of the Bible, and, as such I don't feel qualified to render an opinion about this particular passage. If Biblical scholars are in dispute of it, then I, who haven't had any formal Biblical training whatsoever, am going to step back from engaging in any debate about it at all.
I do appreciate what you say, so I can see that you obviously know enough about the Bible to make your own choice about everlasting life. Of course you haven't said anything that hasn't been heard before, so I'm just going to leave it at that.
I hope you have a good day,
God Bless
a note to add to my point about a young person's suicide:
Emphasis is needed here to explain my pov. It is disgusting to use Christianity as the scapegoat for the immoral actions of a community(or an individual, but that's what most so-called Christians do anyway. This is because religion is such a quick and easy way for people to condemn one another. That being said, nobody commits suicide just because others are using Christianity and the Bible as weapons to belittle them. There will always be other reasons involved, and when it comes to teens and young adults, this is all the more true. So to place blame for such a suicide only on that one aspect of their life is a simple, uninformed, and usually highly biased opinion. Furthermore, suicide is such a personal phenomena that no one can know at all precisely why someone else does it.
To claim to know is just cheap arrogance.
"And Christians do engage in that, with the banning of gay marriage and condemning homosexuals to hell. Even if they do not walk up to gay people and say, "You're going to burn!" the simple fact is that they do teach that homosexuals are sinners, and so an unrepentant homosexual is doomed to hell, according to their own beliefs. Those teachings are harmful. Think about someone raised in that faith who can't be who they want to be, who they are, because they are afraid of eternal torture."
The Bible teaches that all people are sinners (Rom 3:23), completely unable to redeem themselves through their own actions (Eph 2:8-9). In fact, Paul called himself the chief of all sinners (1 Tim 1:15). A correct understanding of this principal should lead Christians to have a lower view of their own righteousness, which should in turn lead them to treat all other human beings as equals. While the common view you present is definitely harmful, the true message of the gospel should actually be anything but.
Interestingly, one of the top commandments is to love your neighbor, not to be straight (Mat 22:36-40). It seems to me that treating homosexuals with anything but love is a bigger sin in itself than homosexuality.
Ahoy Sir Rob, well said, well said... after all this blah blah blah, y'r comment reads like a breath of fresh air.
Still,
I want to address something aigbustr wrote:
"Romans 2:1 says: "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, ***because you who pass judgment do the same things."*** (emphasis aigbustr)."
I searched through 10+ different English versions of the Bible, and the majority have either a colon, semi-colon, or period, right at the place you emphasize(after "condemning yourself"). This changes the meaning significantly. Reading with the break, it's evident Paul is writing about the act of sinning itself, not the specific sin in question. As we all are sinners, it IS hypocritical to judge others.
Also, about this statement:
"...reiterated in verse 3:
"So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them ***and yet do the same things,*** do you think you will escape God’s judgment?" (emphasis aigbustr).
Now this is quoted correctly, out of the NIV, for sure, but within Every Other version I checked, the verse generally says: "...you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself..."
By adding "those who practice such things" the meaning is changed significantly once again. The verse is speaking in general terms, and not in specifics. One should understand it to mean "you who judge those that sin, as you sin yourself, do you think you will escape God's judgement?"
This is what I mean when I say-if you're going to attempt to refute the Bible, then STUDY THE BIBLE!!! Know What You're Taking About!,,,
Otherwise don't even try. A couple thousand years of Biblical Scholarship won't be shaken by one flimsy point of view given by someone who refuses to give it any chance whatsoever.
Well, whatever
Bibles checked include my own, and from the website: biblegateway.com
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